11 comments

1. Dear Ben, I suppose we’ll agree to disagree, my friend!

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2. I agree with this, but to play devil’s advocate (and ignore the culture way issues at the center of “singular they”), wouldn’t the long term grammatical effect of this be similar to dropping “thou” in favor of “you”? That is to say, occasionally inconvenient, but generally unimpactful. Obviously there’s a lot more at take than grammar, but was curious what your thoughts on that point would be.

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   • Dear Dan,

     Contrary to your assertion, the transition from using both Thou and Ye to using only You (regardless of whether in the singular or plural) has been quite inconvenient: the transition has caused (1) awkward usage, (2) ambiguity, and (3) more individualistic readings of the Bible.

     First, a small example of awkward usage is from the prevalence of “you all” in colloquial speech. We are forced to use “you all” because You is for both the singular and plural. Sadly, “you all” is unacceptable in formal writing, so you won’t have “you all” to help you in college papers, doctoral theses, Bibles, and the like.

     Second, here is quick example of ambiguity in the Bible. In Genesis 3:4, is the serpent addressing Adam and Eve, or just Eve? In the English Standard Version, one could reasonably say just Eve, because the verse says:

     But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

     Yet in the King James Version, it makes clear, through the pronoun Ye, that the serpent addresses both Adam and Eve:

     And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

     Lastly, this melding of Thou and Ye into just You has also caused a more individualistic reading of the Bible, especially of the epistles.

     For example, Ephesians 4:4 (ESV) says:

     [4] There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—

     The same verse in the KJV says: There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

     The KJV naturally lends itself to a more communal reading, the ESV to a more individualistic one.

     So the melding of Him and Her into just They will cause similar problems and probably more.

     Let’s say the government makes a law that says, “If a doctor helps a woman get an abortion, they will be jailed for ten years.” Who is being jailed for ten years? The doctor, the woman, or both?

     I hope I made you just as afraid as I!

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     • In your last paragraph, the they is referring to the doctor since that is the object of the sentence, the helps a woman is a verbal phrase.

       Although it might be harder at times to distinguish the plural and singular for some, for most it has not been an issue. For instance, even though the word Ye is usually plural, the sentence structured as “speaking to the woman” makes the dialogue sound addressed to the woman from the clear words of the sentence. Those reading would not believe it’s singular because of the you, but rather because of the “to the woman”.

       I do not understand the individualistic argument. The 10 commandments are structured with a singular, “thou”. Does that make them individualistic? So are most of the commands directed to the covenant community.

       In my experience the transition has caused less ambiguity , and a better flow of usage.

       I would like to point out however that I think neither my or your experience is universal, each individual would have their own interaction with the transition.

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       • Dear Ben,

         You said this:

         “In your last paragraph, the they is referring to the doctor since that is the object of the sentence, the helps a woman is a verbal phrase.”

         Why are you so sure in your conclusion about who “They” is? My sample sentence about the doctor was ambiguous enough to prevent any clearly correct answer.

         Take this other sentence: “When my child marries your child, they will be happy.” Who will be happy? My child, your child, or both?

         If we decide to make They a singular and a plural pronoun, we will cause much confusion and ambiguity.

         I hope you see what I mean.

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         • I work as an English teacher. I might be wrong, but again from my perspective, it’s clear the they is referring to my child. Again the my child is the subject of the sentence, your child is simply part of the verbal phrase modifying the verb.

           Personally I don’t find the they gives confusion, but that might be since I work with the phrases a lot.

     • Lim,

       Using 17th-century English would not advance clarity in 2025.

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       • I regret if I made anyone think that I asserted that, Prof. Clark! Yes, if a 17th-century person parachuted down into 2025, people would have a hard time understanding that person.

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     • Dr. Clark, have you heard of the new “Y’all Bible”? It translates every 2nd person plural as y’all, which I guess reflects the original languages better than “you” for 2S and 2P, but I don’t love the idea of God addressing people as “y’all.” Oh that “ye/you” and “thou/thee” would return.

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       • I have not heard of that project, but I I do remember the Cotton Patch Bible, which had Joseph and Mary hot footing it in their Chevy to Atlanta or something like that.

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       • Well…. I do live in the Missouri Ozarks where both “y’all” and the KJV language of thee/thou/ye are in common use.

         One of our county commissioners came out to visit our church building shortly after we bought it, and since he’s not only a government official but also a top official of the county’s Southern Baptist association, one of his first questions was what translation of the Bible we use. If we had answered anything other than KJV he would have doubted if we were conservatives.

         I understand the textual issues and I’m not going to argue that point. I have enough problems convincing Baptists that the Reformed faith is not a doctrinal aberration without arguing over Bible translations.

         I do think we sometimes underestimate the ability of people to understand the KJV, Shakespeare, or for that matter, much of Reformed theology that was written in English in the 1600s. It took a while, but I was able to find a bilingual KJV-Korean edition of the Bible since my niece’s Christian school required that her Bible memory work be done from the KJV, and if she could do it as a person new to using the English language, it’s not as difficult as some think.

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