The Zeitgeist

They’ll tell you it’s wrong in private, but in public they felt they had to go along….

Bill Kristol

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    • Not a Trump fan for a variety of reasons but I don’t understand the reasoning here. Are you suggesting that anyone educated in a Roman school should not be president of the US? Trump was catechized in a PCUSA and later a member of the RCA Marble Collegiate church in NYC. He also attended Penn and a military academy as a boy.

      Are you suggesting that anyone who attended a Romanist school is a crypto-Romanist?

    • Hi Scott thanks for your reply & apologies for a late reply, I’m not suggesting that
      anyone who attends a Romanist school is a crypto-Romanist, but I did imply that
      Trump might be, though I shouldn’t have, though I do have similar concerns as
      Maria does, & would hold any one who has attended a romanist institution with
      suspicion or a note of caution, anyone who has attended such places could at the
      very least hold sympathetic views &/or emotions towards these particular sects
      by having attended & been indoctrinated in their views, socialised with &
      befriended persons there, there is always a possibility of a person being recruited
      either openly or secretly by such an organisation as the Jesuits, you would know
      that Arminus came back from a trip to rome & from hence he started propagated
      semi-pelagian views basically similar to what the jesuits had put in their council
      of trent, which overthrew centuries of catholic augustinianism, you may also be
      familiar with Archbishop Laud in who’s papers they had found that he had been secretly corresponding with the jesuits, Toplady notes this.

      • Robert,

        Yes, Arminius was (I think) influenced by his time at Padua (in the north of Italy) and influenced by Roman theologians but Vermigli and Zanchi were Roman theologians before the became devout Protestants, who argued that their Protestant theology was more faithful to Thomas than was Rome. Did Arminius become a semi-Pelagian because he was in Padua or because he was a rationalist dissatisfied with the Reformation and he found their ideas more to his liking? I don’t know. I doubt we’ll ever know.

        Laud anticipated Anglo-Catholicism by 150 years but like them, he was dissatisfied with the Reformation. Again, was engagement with Roman thinkers a symptom or a cause? Hard to say. We should be careful about cause and effect. I’m very skeptical about conspiracy theories. There are conspiracies, not doubt, but most of the time they do not work as a sound explanation for why things happen as they do.

  1. Hi, Dr. Clark and Robert,
    According to Wiki, Trump attended Fordham for two years and graduated from Wharton with a major in Economics.
    If he had completed his degree at Fordham, then there should be concern, I believe. This is my view as an ex-Catholic, as someone who is trying to grasp the Reformation and Counter-Reformation and separate fact from fiction, to God’s glory.
    Maria Tatham

    • Maria,

      I attended and graduated from a secular (and often secularist) university for my bachelor’s degree and I earned a DPhil from an alternately secularist and latitudinarian Anglican university but I am neither secularist nor a latitudinarian Anglican. This line of reasoning seems like a non-sequitur.

  2. Snow White needs to look in the mirror.

    IOW Kristol has got some nerve to be talking. As the one of the main fanboys of the neoconservative empire this country has morphed into, he has done his part to provoke the populist nationalistic opposition to the neocon and cluckservative RINOs headed up by the brash, boorish and opportunistic Orange Monster Drumpf Truck.

    But maybe the Big D can mash Bill’s sour grapes into vinegar on the way to the Demo Derby with Hill.

  3. Dr. Clark, before I answer, I want to get back to the subject of your post – the quote – to say that it resonated with me.

    About your comment to me, I’m not sure what I said is a non-sequitur – I was offering some facts about Mr. Trump and then insight from having been raised and educated as a Catholic, that is, that being educated by Jesuits is not a good thing and does raise red flags. Trump probably made a good decision to go to Wharton for more than one reason.

    For many years I worked at a state university and saw that education isn’t neutral, that there are assumptions – a worldview – behind a lot of what is taught and learned. This is true about Jesuit institutions of higher education – they promote “social justice” and Ignatian spirituality. Students are being formed by these distinctives.

    Isn’t it the grace of God that you are not a secularist and I’m not Roman Catholic? So glad!

    • Maria,

      1. I agree that education isn’t neutral and that institutions have a worldview, i.e., an interpretation of the meaning of existence etc.

      2. In context, (the point I took to be implied by Robert and you, which others have made here and that history bears on my interpretation of your comment) I understood you to be saying that if one attended a Roman university that one is necessarily sympathetic to Romanism or possibly a crypto-Romanist agent. Such claims have been made about scholars I know, who earned their PhDs from Romanist universities. The non sequitur is this: if attended Romanist university, then Romanist sympathizer (or agent or whatever).

      3. If that’s not the implied claim, then what’ the point of noting the fact that a person attended a Romanist university for 2 years? It’s to bring his motives into question, is it not?

      • Hi, again, Dr. Clark! I didn’t say that someone who attended a Jesuit institution is necessarily sympathetic to Romanism. But I did say/imply that attending and graduating from a Jesuit institution is not a good thing and raises a red flag, and we should consider it when we are trying to understand and make judgments about where a person’s allegiance MAY be.

        As I was thinking about all of this I realized that the Reformers were educated in Catholic institutions, so we can just be glad for the grace of God, Who overrules what others have done in their work to mold our thinking.

        Thank you for taking time to reply to me carefully. I will be more thoughtful in my comments; I should have concentrated on the quote you offered, which rings true. I tend to jump at the chance to weigh on this topic (Counter-Reformation) and perhaps I do so with more than a little ignorance.

        Lord bless you!

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